This, by no means is as exciting or interesting as some of the other
threads I have followed, but serves as a constant reminder to me, how
quickly things can change!

Wanting to get my plane down to Cameron Park before Feb 1. for an
annual, I determined that yesterday was probably my best opportunity
due to the stoms that have, now rolled in, and are supposed to hang
around for a few days.

I checked the METAR's, late morning/early afternoon, and the reports
and forecasts were P6SM, with areas of haze and a hint of MVFR (METAR's
seem to be amazingly accurate sometimes, don't they?). Cameron Park
being about a 10 minute hop from Georgetown, I figured I could get to
the plane, pop-up and make the call, always having the out to turn
around and land at Georgetown to try another day.

I took off out of Georgetown about 4:00, on what from the ground
appeared to be a slight haze. I popped up to 3,000 ft and was amazed
at how hazey it was towards the west. I stayed at 3,000, and always
had visual reference to the ground, although it was very hazey and I
really couldn't see much at a slant-distance. Having flown this dozens
of times, I knew right where I was going, but I didn't have favorite
landmark (Pilot hill) in sight. I always see this, as soon as I pop up
off of Georgetown. I continued on, always making sure I could see
down, and having the out to turn around as I mentioned before. (There
are a couple of private strips between the two airports that I always
like to have a visual on, when I'm in the area)

I got closer to Pilot hill and could finally make it out through the
haze and entered a 45 for left traffic 13. There was one other plane
departing the pattern, and I called 10, 5 and 3 miles out, so he knew
where I was and what my intentions were (I never heard from him, other
than is departure roll-out call).

I entered the pattern and had one of my nicer landings in a long time,
especially considering the lack of flying I have been doing recently.

I secured the plane, gave the mechanic my squawk list and went to the
parking lot, where my wife was waiting with my kids, and we went out
and grabbed a pizza.

Here's the kicker... We had a meeting to attend at my daughters
school, and had to eat our pizza pretty quickly to make it on time.
When we walked out of the pizza place, it was starting to get dark, but
more striking to me were the ominous clouds that were present.

Hiding behind the haze was a nasty bit of cloudiness that seemed to
have rolled in over the whole area. Had this not been a 10 minute
flight and had I not prepared for an out, this could have turned ugly,
quickly!

Gotta get back to work, so that's it for now... I just thought, having
seen so many postings on weather changing quickly, that I would share
my observations on a VERY routine flight that could have been anything
but routine if it had been anything other than a quick hop from
Georgetown to Cameron Park.

Best Regards,
Todd

On 01/26/06 08:52, three-eight-hotel wrote:
> This, by no means is as exciting or interesting as some of the other
> threads I have followed, but serves as a constant reminder to me, how
> quickly things can change!
>
> Wanting to get my plane down to Cameron Park before Feb 1. for an
> annual, I determined that yesterday was probably my best opportunity
> due to the stoms that have, now rolled in, and are supposed to hang
> around for a few days.
>
> I checked the METAR's, late morning/early afternoon, and the reports
> and forecasts were P6SM, with areas of haze and a hint of MVFR (METAR's
> seem to be amazingly accurate sometimes, don't they?). Cameron Park
> being about a 10 minute hop from Georgetown, I figured I could get to
> the plane, pop-up and make the call, always having the out to turn
> around and land at Georgetown to try another day.
>
> I took off out of Georgetown about 4:00, on what from the ground
> appeared to be a slight haze. I popped up to 3,000 ft and was amazed
> at how hazey it was towards the west. I stayed at 3,000, and always
> had visual reference to the ground, although it was very hazey and I
> really couldn't see much at a slant-distance. Having flown this dozens
> of times, I knew right where I was going, but I didn't have favorite
> landmark (Pilot hill) in sight. I always see this, as soon as I pop up
> off of Georgetown. I continued on, always making sure I could see
> down, and having the out to turn around as I mentioned before. (There
> are a couple of private strips between the two airports that I always
> like to have a visual on, when I'm in the area)
>
> I got closer to Pilot hill and could finally make it out through the
> haze and entered a 45 for left traffic 13. There was one other plane
> departing the pattern, and I called 10, 5 and 3 miles out, so he knew
> where I was and what my intentions were (I never heard from him, other
> than is departure roll-out call).
>
> I entered the pattern and had one of my nicer landings in a long time,
> especially considering the lack of flying I have been doing recently.
>
> I secured the plane, gave the mechanic my squawk list and went to the
> parking lot, where my wife was waiting with my kids, and we went out
> and grabbed a pizza.
>
> Here's the kicker... We had a meeting to attend at my daughters
> school, and had to eat our pizza pretty quickly to make it on time.
> When we walked out of the pizza place, it was starting to get dark, but
> more striking to me were the ominous clouds that were present.
>
> Hiding behind the haze was a nasty bit of cloudiness that seemed to
> have rolled in over the whole area. Had this not been a 10 minute
> flight and had I not prepared for an out, this could have turned ugly,
> quickly!

On the other hand, Todd, if you had been planning a flight that was longer
than the quick 10-minute hop, would you have continued once you popped-up
and saw the extent of the haze? It sounded to me like the only reason
you continued was because you knew you were just going next door.

There's a good article in AOPA's flight training magazine this month
about a fellow that got caught in some nasty weather/ice. It's worth
a read.

I remember one flight back to the home airport from a local practice
area. I climbed to 1,500', but the haze was getting thicker. It was
really difficult to tell where the haze stopped and the clouds began.
I estimated that at 1,500' I still had 3-5 miles visibility, but decided
to descent to 1,000' where I had P6SM (after all, it was only 5 minutes
to the airport).


>
> Gotta get back to work, so that's it for now... I just thought, having
> seen so many postings on weather changing quickly, that I would share
> my observations on a VERY routine flight that could have been anything
> but routine if it had been anything other than a quick hop from
> Georgetown to Cameron Park.
>
> Best Regards,
> Todd
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Todd,
Who is doing your annual at Cameron Park? Main Air, Rex Mann??
My Mooney is parked out on the ramp at Cameron Park.

-Robert

>> On the other hand, Todd, if you had been planning a flight that was longer
>> than the quick 10-minute hop, would you have continued once you popped-up
>> and saw the extent of the haze? It sounded to me like the only reason
>> you continued was because you knew you were just going next door.

I'm not current, and plan on going up with my instructor to get some
hood time, as soon as my plane is out of annual, before I take it home.
If I was going to SAC or further... hmmmm.... I think I may have
turned around. Not being able to see Pilot hill is one thing, but not
being able to see the Sacramento landscape is another. If I were
current, and could make an IFR request to get to my destination...
hmmm... maybe. But I would have done much more research on the
weather, than I did, before making the trip.

>> There's a good article in AOPA's flight training magazine this month
>> about a fellow that got caught in some nasty weather/ice. It's worth
>> a read.

I'll check it out... Thanks!

>> I remember one flight back to the home airport from a local practice
>> area. I climbed to 1,500', but the haze was getting thicker. It was
>> really difficult to tell where the haze stopped and the clouds began.
>> I estimated that at 1,500' I still had 3-5 miles visibility, but decided
>> to descent to 1,000' where I had P6SM (after all, it was only 5 minutes
>> to the airport).

Yeah... haze is one thing, when it's just a matter of stability in the
atmosphere and simply a bad air day, but when there's haze and a nasty
system looming behind it, I would really want to know what I was up
against and be prepared before I ventured too far away from known
satisfactory conditions.

Todd

Main Air...

I actually looked over for a Mooney, on the ramp, and think I have
probably seen it in the past. Is your's the only one parked there? My
172 is the Orange/White one parked south of the Main Air hangers.
"three-eight-hotel"... ;-)

Todd

On 01/26/06 11:28, three-eight-hotel wrote:
>>> On the other hand, Todd, if you had been planning a flight that was longer
>>> than the quick 10-minute hop, would you have continued once you popped-up
>>> and saw the extent of the haze? It sounded to me like the only reason
>>> you continued was because you knew you were just going next door.
>
> I'm not current, and plan on going up with my instructor to get some
> hood time, as soon as my plane is out of annual, before I take it home.
> If I was going to SAC or further... hmmmm.... I think I may have
> turned around. Not being able to see Pilot hill is one thing, but not
> being able to see the Sacramento landscape is another. If I were
> current, and could make an IFR request to get to my destination...
> hmmm... maybe. But I would have done much more research on the
> weather, than I did, before making the trip.

That was basically what I was saying. You didn't dodge a bullet
because had the gun actually have been loaded, you would have
never stepped in front of it ;-)

>
>>> There's a good article in AOPA's flight training magazine this month
>>> about a fellow that got caught in some nasty weather/ice. It's worth
>>> a read.
>
> I'll check it out... Thanks!
>
>>> I remember one flight back to the home airport from a local practice
>>> area. I climbed to 1,500', but the haze was getting thicker. It was
>>> really difficult to tell where the haze stopped and the clouds began.
>>> I estimated that at 1,500' I still had 3-5 miles visibility, but decided
>>> to descent to 1,000' where I had P6SM (after all, it was only 5 minutes
>>> to the airport).
>
> Yeah... haze is one thing, when it's just a matter of stability in the
> atmosphere and simply a bad air day, but when there's haze and a nasty
> system looming behind it, I would really want to know what I was up
> against and be prepared before I ventured too far away from known
> satisfactory conditions.
>
> Todd
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

>> That was basically what I was saying. You didn't dodge a bullet
>> because had the gun actually have been loaded, you would have
>> never stepped in front of it ;-)

I figured that's where you were going with that... ;-) and... you
are right! I didn't dodge a bullet, because I wasn't or wouldn't have
been willing to put myself in a situation that might have got me into
trouble. I knew the conditions I was coming from were favorable, with
a slight haze, and could have easily turned back to try again another
day.

The point of my post was not to suggest I dodged a bullet, but to
emphasize how quickly things can turn. Any VFR pilot could have hopped
into a plane from Cameron Park to do some air-work that might have
taken them to a practice area further than where I was coming from, in
Georgetown. They could have ascended up to a few thousand feet in a
light to moderate haze, practiced some turns and stalls for an hour or
two and headed back to Cameron Park to land. In the hour I left the
airport and had pizza at a local shop, things turned from what appeared
to be haze to fairly ominous looking clouds. I would have not wanted
to be away in favorable conditions practicing maneuvers, only to return
to what I saw when I left the pizza place.

Even though it was "only" a 10 minute flight for me, I think I have
something to learn from the observation as well. Weather can change in
an instant, and you can't always know what's looming behind haze or a
layer of clouds without seriously preparing for a flight into those
known conditions. Even then, there are no guarantees.

Best Regards,
Todd

Todd

"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> This, by no means is as exciting or interesting as some of the other
> threads I have followed, but serves as a constant reminder to me, how
> quickly things can change!
>

Found this about a quick VFR jaunt back from some aerobatics practice...

<http://iac78.org/newsletter/NL%20Fall-Winter%2005%20Color.pdf > See pages
7,8

"The weather at Waseca was ideal with high cirrus and light winds from the
southeast. The Twin Cities Saturday forecast called for a slight chance of
isolated showers in the area."
....

"Justin had to call FSS because the weather computer at Waseca was down. FSS
said a band of showers had just moved through the Cities, but FCM was now
reporting good VFR conditions. We could see a dark area of clouds in the far
northern sky that seemed to match up with what FSS was talking about."
....
"As we motored north at 4500 MSL clouds were thickening and ceilings were
coming down. We had to descend to maintain VFR. As we approached the
Faribault area, we began to see lightning and it was frequent with direct
cloud to ground strikes. No way we were going to fly into that stuff."

....

"We quickly stacked all three planes in the hangar and no more than got the
hangar door down when wind gusts began to rattle the big 45' bi-fold door.
We latched the door, rain and hail pounded on the roof creating so much
noise, we had to shout to hear each other. We were standing directly behind
the door and the winds were causing the big door to sway in and out with
about 12" of movement."

....

"After an indeterminate amount of time the rain and wind subsided somewhat.
Mel peeked out the man-door and yelled for us to come see what had happened.
The hangar right across the alleyway had it's roof and walls blown off.
Glider trailers parked on the field were crushed from being tossed about
like dice."


--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

I think there are 2 and sometimes 3 out there. Mine is the one with the
nice Bruce's cover. The others have old covers that are always half
falling off.

-Robert

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message
...
> "three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> This, by no means is as exciting or interesting as some of the other
>> threads I have followed, but serves as a constant reminder to me, how
>> quickly things can change!
>>
>
> Found this about a quick VFR jaunt back from some aerobatics practice...
>
> <http://iac78.org/newsletter/NL%20Fall-Winter%2005%20Color.pdf > See pages
> 7,8
>
> "The weather at Waseca was ideal with high cirrus and light winds from the
> southeast. The Twin Cities Saturday forecast called for a slight chance of
> isolated showers in the area."
> ...
>
> "Justin had to call FSS because the weather computer at Waseca was down.
> FSS said a band of showers had just moved through the Cities, but FCM was
> now reporting good VFR conditions. We could see a dark area of clouds in
> the far northern sky that seemed to match up with what FSS was talking
> about."
> ...
> "As we motored north at 4500 MSL clouds were thickening and ceilings were
> coming down. We had to descend to maintain VFR. As we approached the
> Faribault area, we began to see lightning and it was frequent with direct
> cloud to ground strikes. No way we were going to fly into that stuff."
>
> ...
>
> "We quickly stacked all three planes in the hangar and no more than got
> the hangar door down when wind gusts began to rattle the big 45' bi-fold
> door. We latched the door, rain and hail pounded on the roof creating so
> much noise, we had to shout to hear each other. We were standing directly
> behind the door and the winds were causing the big door to sway in and out
> with about 12" of movement."
>
> ...
>
> "After an indeterminate amount of time the rain and wind subsided
> somewhat. Mel peeked out the man-door and yelled for us to come see what
> had happened. The hangar right across the alleyway had it's roof and walls
> blown off. Glider trailers parked on the field were crushed from being
> tossed about like dice."
>
>
> --
> Geoff
> the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.
>

Y'All,
A friend of mine wanted to get his plane from Concord CA to Auburn CA a bit
early for his annual to avoid a series of storms shortly to arrive in
Northern CA. He called me at 9 A. M and we were ready to depart at 11AM.
We planned to make separate departures using ATC radar advisories while
monitoring 122.85 if something came up.

I got started out first and waited in the runup areas until my friend
appeared to make my
departure. We had agreed to fly below 3000' AGL. He flew at 2700 and I
flew at 2900 AGL We did not tell ATC that we were together.

At one point I was quired by ATC as to why I chose to fly at 2900. My
response was that not very many pilots make a practice of flying such an
altitude. and it becamse apparent as we encountered any number of other
aircraft flying at 2000;.500 and 3000. It soon became apparent that our
altlitude selection was a good idea.

Between Sacramento and Auburn there was a bank of cumulus what got in the
way. Since I was in front I made the choice of flying over insead of below
the clouds even though the one-minute-weather out of Auburn gave bases of
1500. My choice was based upon the
probability of greater turbulence below the clouds while flying into rising
terrain. My friend, a few miles behind made the same choice. He had GPS
while I was strickly pilotage. Things did not get much better so I advised
ATC that I would descend in VFR and my
friend behind did likewise. The GPS made it possible for him to do so right
over Auburn
but I was about three miles away to the North.

Now we come to the point of my contribution. In my descent I became totally
disoriented
as to where to find Auburn. I immediately advised ATC that I would require
vectors on descent below the clouds. I was giving a heading of 264-degrees.
Usually a vector is not so precise so I quired for a repeat. He was right
on. With excellent visibility 10-15 miles too low to see the airport runway
but I did see the buildings, I continued on that heading. Almost
immediately ATC gave me a terrain alert and a collision alert. I was at
about 500'AGL and in conflict with my friend who was on downwind. I did not
see him until I came out of the ATC recommended left climbing turn for
avoidance. When I came out of my turn I was on left base for 25 and my
friend was on final. We both proceeded to land with no problem

What I am getting at is that a major block facing most pilots who get into
problem situation is not knowing how or when to ask for and get help. My
friend with his GPS had no problem. Pilotage alone was not going to work
for me under the low ceilings so I used
ATC as my 'GPS' and had no problem either.

We met at the restaurant, had lunch and did the planning for the annual soon
to depart back to Concord in my plane. I let him fly right seat for the
experience. We probably saved him a week's delay in getting his annual.

Moral: You don't need to know everything or to solve all flying problems on
your own. The more you know the more willing you will be to ask for help.

Gene Whitt

Wow! Certainly goes to show that weather is something that should be
respected!

I have a copy of the movie, "The Perfect Storm". I've watched it
several times and am fascinated at how insignificant we can be when
weather and/or the sea, in this case, decides to open up a can of
whoop-@$$ on us!

No matter how indestructable we think we are at times, we don't stand a
chance against some of the blows mother-nature can deal.

Best Regards,
Todd

>> Moral: You don't need to know everything or to solve all flying problems on
>> your own. The more you know the more willing you will be to ask for help.

Absolutely! I'm also coming to the realization that the more I learn,
the more I know that I don't know anything!!! ;-)

Thanks for sharing your experience!

Best Regards,
Todd

"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I popped up to 3,000 ft and was amazed
> at how hazey it was towards the west. I stayed at 3,000, and always
> had visual reference to the ground, although it was very hazey and I
> really couldn't see much at a slant-distance. Having flown this dozens
> of times, I knew right where I was going [...]
> I continued on, always making sure I could see
> down, and having the out to turn around as I mentioned before.

It sounds like you're describing a VFR flight in IMC. Or have I
misunderstood you?

--Gary

I don't think it would have been considered VFR in IMC... There were
absolutely no clouds (although clouds aren't what constitute IMC), and
at 3,000 feet I had constant visual reference with the ground and never
had to depend on my instruments for navigation or situational
awareness. I probably had visibility of 2-3 miles through the haze,
but definitely couldn't see major landmarks like Pilot Hill or Folsom
lake at a distance of greater than 4 or 5 miles.

To be honest, the main reason for posting was because I had finally had
my first chance to fly, in several weeks, and I was stoked about
getting up again, if only for a 10 minute jaunt down the street! ;-)

What struck me though and gave me a more meaningful reason to post was
walking outside after dinner and seeing an entirely different weather
picture than I had seen only an hour ago, when I landed. There was
some pretty ugly, and low clouds hiding behind that haze, meaning in a
worst case scenario, It could have been 4 to 5 miles away from where I
was, and I wouldn't have seen it.

Best Regards,
Todd

"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I don't think it would have been considered VFR in IMC... There were
> absolutely no clouds (although clouds aren't what constitute IMC), and
> at 3,000 feet I had constant visual reference with the ground and never
> had to depend on my instruments for navigation or situational
> awareness. I probably had visibility of 2-3 miles through the haze,

But as you know, less than 3 sm visibility is IMC (except in Class G during
the day at 1200' AGL or less), so VFR flight in those conditions is unsafe
and illegal.

You described being able to see things "down" but not "at a slant" in haze
at 3000'. At that altitude, if you can't see prominent objects 11 degrees
below horizontal, you have less than 3 sm visibility (and if you can't see
prominent objects 35 degrees below horizontal--still nowhere near
"down"--you have less than 1sm visibility).

Even if you can manage to aviate and navigate without instruments while
flying VFR in IMC, you don't have adequate means to see and avoid anyone
who's legally flying IFR near you. So you're betting their lives that you
won't happen to collide with them.

> reason to post was
> walking outside after dinner and seeing an entirely different weather
> picture than I had seen only an hour ago, when I landed.

I appreciate your motivation for posting, but I think you've overlooked a
far more important lesson than the one you had in mind.

Regards,
Gary

Gary Drescher > wrote:
: oups.com...
: > I popped up to 3,000 ft and was amazed
: > at how hazey it was towards the west. I stayed at 3,000, and always
: > had visual reference to the ground, although it was very hazey and I
: > really couldn't see much at a slant-distance. Having flown this dozens
: > of times, I knew right where I was going [...]
: > I continued on, always making sure I could see
: > down, and having the out to turn around as I mentioned before.

: It sounds like you're describing a VFR flight in IMC. Or have I
: misunderstood you?

Might be, might not be. Playing the legal card here isn't helpful. As anyone
who's flown in the haze can attest, the visibility of 2.9 miles vs. 3.1 miles is not
something that is easily determined in flight. One is illegal, one is legal, and they
are both indeterminable in flight.

Was it MVFR? Sure. Was it IMC? Possibly. Remember that it's also very
possibly to legally fly under VFR in legal VMC and still require instruments to
control the aircraft (night, OTT with strange clouds below, etc). Unlike ceilings,
visibilities are not as clear-cut in determining when the conditions are IMC vs. VMC.

Chill.
-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

>> But as you know, less than 3 sm visibility is IMC (except in Class G during
>> the day at 1200' AGL or less), so VFR flight in those conditions is unsafe
>> and illegal.

Agreed.

>> You described being able to see things "down" but not "at a slant" in haze
>> at 3000'. At that altitude, if you can't see prominent objects 11 degrees
>> below horizontal, you have less than 3 sm visibility (and if you can't see
>> prominent objects 35 degrees below horizontal--still nowhere near
>> "down"--you have less than 1sm visibility).

Any typical day in the Sacramento Valley is going to involve haze,
except for those perfect days. I am certain that I have flown in
conditions of 10, 20+, to almost unlimited visibility, where I couldn't
see Mt. Diable, 90ish miles away, at an altitude that probably put it
at 11 degrees below horizontal.

Standing on the ground at the departure and destination airports, I can
comfortably say that there was 5 sm visibility, as I was amazed at how
different things could look from the ground and in the air. An
un-intentionally omitted fact was that the flight occured around 4:30
p.m., which added another parameter, being the setting sun. The
setting sun and haze could have likely made for poorer visibility, as
I was flying East to West???

Another fact that I will humbly admit to, is that my gauge of distance
probably leaves a lot to be desired. I welcome any and all comments to
how people best gauge distance. I would like to know that when I
report a 5 mile final, it isn't actually a 7 mile final, which I
suspect I might be guilty of.

I'm certainly not trying to be argumentative and appreciate your post,
nor am I looking to get flamed for flying VFR into IMC, which I assure
you, I would not be comfortable doing or be happy about, if I had let
it occur.

>> Even if you can manage to aviate and navigate without instruments while
>> flying VFR in IMC, you don't have adequate means to see and avoid anyone
>> who's legally flying IFR near you. So you're betting their lives that you
>> won't happen to collide with them.

As I said above, the visibilty on the ground, after arrival, I would
comfortably call 5 miles. Although I'd feel better about stating that,
if I could see a copy of the METAR for that time. Is there any way of
finding METAR information for a previous day??? It would be nice to
see a copy for peace of mind...

>> I appreciate your motivation for posting, but I think you've overlooked a
>> far more important lesson than the one you had in mind.

Thanks Gary! Your point is taken! I "did" take a 10 minute flight for
granted, and will no longer depend on a forecast and a pop-up and see
how it feels report for current weather. I will "always" get a
breifing at least one hour prior to departure. The other point in
that, is that there could have been a situation where a temporary TFR
was introduced since the original briefing...

Best Regards,
Todd

"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message ups.com...
>
> if I could see a copy of the METAR for that time. Is there any way of
> finding METAR information for a previous day??? It would be nice to
> see a copy for peace of mind...
>
> Todd
>

http://adds.aviationweather.gov/metars/
Enter the aerodrome identifier, and select the time period, up to 36 hours,
from the drop-down box.

"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>> You described being able to see things "down" but not "at a slant" in
>>> haze
>>> at 3000'. At that altitude, if you can't see prominent objects 11
>>> degrees
>>> below horizontal, you have less than 3 sm visibility (and if you can't
>>> see
>>> prominent objects 35 degrees below horizontal--still nowhere near
>>> "down"--you have less than 1sm visibility).
>
> Any typical day in the Sacramento Valley is going to involve haze,
> except for those perfect days. I am certain that I have flown in
> conditions of 10, 20+, to almost unlimited visibility, where I couldn't
> see Mt. Diable, 90ish miles away, at an altitude that probably put it
> at 11 degrees below horizontal.

Of course--it varies with altitude. At 3000', 11 degrees below horizontal
gives you just under 3 sm slant distance. At a much higher altitude, 11
degrees below horizontal gives a much greater slant distance.

> Standing on the ground at the departure and destination airports, I can
> comfortably say that there was 5 sm visibility, as I was amazed at how
> different things could look from the ground and in the air. An
> un-intentionally omitted fact was that the flight occured around 4:30
> p.m., which added another parameter, being the setting sun. The
> setting sun and haze could have likely made for poorer visibility, as
> I was flying East to West???

Quite likely. But flight visibility is defined by how far you can see,
regardless of the factors that contribute to limiting that distance. And the
VMC/IMC visibility distinction is defined with regard to *flight*
visibility, not ground visibility.

> Another fact that I will humbly admit to, is that my gauge of distance
> probably leaves a lot to be desired. I welcome any and all comments to
> how people best gauge distance.

Yup, it's hard to judge distance, especially when the air is very hazy.
Calculating the slant distances that correspond to various altitudes and
viewing angles can be helpful. An obvious easy one to remember is that at 30
degrees below horizontal, the slant distance is twice your altitude
(neglecting earth curvature).

> I'm certainly not trying to be argumentative and appreciate your post,
> nor am I looking to get flamed for flying VFR into IMC, which I assure
> you, I would not be comfortable doing or be happy about, if I had let
> it occur.

I believe you. But with no flame intended, and with all due respect, your
description (seeing things in the down direction, but not at much of a
slant, from 3000') makes it seem likely that your flight visibility was
*nowhere near* VMC. In fact, if you couldn't see prominent objects from your
altitude 35 degrees below horizontal, the conditions were not only IFR but
LIFR! (Of course, all this applies when you are *in* the haze rather than
*above* the haze.)

>>> Even if you can manage to aviate and navigate without instruments while
>>> flying VFR in IMC, you don't have adequate means to see and avoid anyone
>>> who's legally flying IFR near you. So you're betting their lives that
>>> you
>>> won't happen to collide with them.
>
> As I said above, the visibilty on the ground, after arrival, I would
> comfortably call 5 miles.

But that's what not defines the difference between VMC and IMC. What matters
is *flight* visibility, which (as your story vividly illustrates) can be
much less than ground visibility. And it makes sense that the rules refer to
flight visibility, because a primary reason not to be VFR in IMC is the need
to see and avoid other aircraft--and that ability depends on your flight
visibility. (Again, my intent here is not to criticize, but to
constructively point out a vital distinction that you and perhaps other
pilots here may have forgotten.)

> Thanks Gary! Your point is taken! I "did" take a 10 minute flight for
> granted, and will no longer depend on a forecast and a pop-up and see
> how it feels report for current weather. I will "always" get a
> breifing at least one hour prior to departure.

That's a good idea too, but the same situation could well have arisen even
with a more up-to-date briefing. Once you take off and discover sub-VMC
flight visibility, the briefing becomes moot.

You might want to file an ASRS report on this flight--not only for your
legal protection (most likely no one noticed anyway), but also because this
is exactly the sort of event that NASA hopes to learn from in order to
improve aviation safety. As do the readers of this newsgroup, so thanks for
your post! :)

Regards,
Gary

> wrote in message
...
> Playing the legal card here isn't helpful.

My main intent is to play the safety card.

> As anyone
> who's flown in the haze can attest, the visibility of 2.9 miles vs. 3.1
> miles is not
> something that is easily determined in flight.

Todd's estimate was 2-3 miles, not 2.9. More importantly, his description of
his view corresponds to 1-2 miles (or even less).

> Remember that it's also very possibly to legally fly under VFR in legal
> VMC and
> still require instruments to control the aircraft (night, OTT with
> strange clouds below, etc)

Sure, but under those conditions you still have adequate visibility to see
and avoid other aircraft. That's precisely what's different in the situation
under discussion.

--Gary

three-eight-hotel wrote:
Is there any way of
> finding METAR information for a previous day??? It would be nice to
> see a copy for peace of mind...

http://www.uswx.com/us/stn/?code=d&n=24&stn=kRDU
http://weather.noaa.gov/

Perfect! Thanks!

Thanks John! That's very useful, within the 36 hour window, as you
mentioned.

three-eight-hotel wrote:
> I don't think it would have been considered VFR in IMC... [...]
> I probably had visibility of 2-3 miles through the haze,

In most areas, 2 miles viz is IMC, or at least not VMC. You can't see
aluminum ahead fast enough.

Jose